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1987 Corvette Won't Start after New Engine Install

 
lonewolf11
V-6 Camaros rule!
Posts: 105
Joined: 04/09
Posted: 02/25/12 10:56 AM

Icon Quotewaynep7122:
you cannot see the pick up coil tips or the reluctor tips very well on your distributer .. but they are there..




you can almost see them in this image of just the pick up coil..




here is a later model V6 distributer.. theory is the same...   the reluctor is the star on the shaft...

the pick up coil is on the out side with an internal star..

4Pointthreetbidistributer

if you have the crank lined up.. to where you want the base timing to be..  and the last motion of the crank was in the normal direction of rotation..   (turning right at the top of the damper)   and you stop at what ever the base timing should be.. i looked in my smog manual for the 6 before spec.. what you have on the label is probably correct..  as i have seen other cars with 0. timing ...

this is where the ignition module will fire the coil at during start up.. .

once the engine reaches 400 RPMs... the Computer takes control...

...

this works both ways.. you can slowly turn the crank.. while watching the reluctor and pick up coil.. stopping where they line up perfectly...  then look at the crank to see where the timing is set..


i love this dead stick timing..  as i preset the engine.. rip the distributer out.. work on it or swap it for a different one.. shove it in.. align it as described above..   lock it down..  after verifying its seated on the oil pump shaft..   reach through the open window and crank the engine up..  it will start almost every time...  makes me look like a genius ..


click the Active posts link above to see the post i put up on the SCAN tools for the late C3 and C4 corvettes..


Wayne, looking at the Pickup Coil how crucial is it to have the plastic around the connections that plug into the Ignition Module? Mine broke off when I replaced the module & I spliced in connectors with soft plastic surrounding the actual connections that plug into the module. I do get plenty of spark at the spark plugs when I check for spark. But I also see this as being a "magnetic" connection so maybe that broken plastic piece surrounding the actual clips is crucial?  
Gregorio Lonewolf

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lonewolf11
V-6 Camaros rule!
Posts: 105
Joined: 04/09
Posted: 02/25/12 11:20 AM

Icon Quotewaynep7122:
you cannot see the pick up coil tips or the reluctor tips very well on your distributer .. but they are there..




you can almost see them in this image of just the pick up coil..




here is a later model V6 distributer.. theory is the same...   the reluctor is the star on the shaft...

the pick up coil is on the out side with an internal star..

4Pointthreetbidistributer

if you have the crank lined up.. to where you want the base timing to be..  and the last motion of the crank was in the normal direction of rotation..   (turning right at the top of the damper)   and you stop at what ever the base timing should be.. i looked in my smog manual for the 6 before spec.. what you have on the label is probably correct..  as i have seen other cars with 0. timing ...

this is where the ignition module will fire the coil at during start up.. .

once the engine reaches 400 RPMs... the Computer takes control...

...

this works both ways.. you can slowly turn the crank.. while watching the reluctor and pick up coil.. stopping where they line up perfectly...  then look at the crank to see where the timing is set..


i love this dead stick timing..  as i preset the engine.. rip the distributer out.. work on it or swap it for a different one.. shove it in.. align it as described above..   lock it down..  after verifying its seated on the oil pump shaft..   reach through the open window and crank the engine up..  it will start almost every time...  makes me look like a genius ..


click the Active posts link above to see the post i put up on the SCAN tools for the late C3 and C4 corvettes..


BTW Wayne, perhaps this is the problem as well??? Hope you can see the image.

Ref=Dp Otherviews 0?Ie=UTF8&S=Automotive&Img=0  
Gregorio Lonewolf

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waynep7122
I have an SS396 tatoo
Posts: 262
Joined: 08/09
Posted: 02/25/12 08:27 PM

a few things...   those wire from the pick up coil have under 2 volts AC current.. actually signal AC voltage...

so they can get along without any special insulation..

the order they are installed ON the end of the MODULE is critical...    get it wrong..  the module will fire the coil between the cap terminals not when the rotor is aligned with the cap terminal.. making it really really really hard to get the car started... even though it has spark...




green wire should be closest to the shaft..

green wire on terminal P

white wire on terminal N...


on the 5 pin end.  from the outside in..    B R E N P

B =  bypass input
R =  reference output
E = EST input
N = Input signal Negative
P = input signal Positive..

on the other end...

+ is the battery positive..

C is the wire to the coil negative side...

one of the module hold down screws actually grounds the module..  

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lonewolf11
V-6 Camaros rule!
Posts: 105
Joined: 04/09
Posted: 02/26/12 11:56 AM

Icon Quotewaynep7122:
a few things...   those wire from the pick up coil have under 2 volts AC current.. actually signal AC voltage...

so they can get along without any special insulation..

the order they are installed ON the end of the MODULE is critical...    get it wrong..  the module will fire the coil between the cap terminals not when the rotor is aligned with the cap terminal.. making it really really really hard to get the car started... even though it has spark...




green wire should be closest to the shaft..

green wire on terminal P

white wire on terminal N...


on the 5 pin end.  from the outside in..    B R E N P

B =  bypass input
R =  reference output
E = EST input
N = Input signal Negative
P = input signal Positive..

on the other end...

+ is the battery positive..

C is the wire to the coil negative side...

one of the module hold down screws actually grounds the module..


Thanks Wayne, I did insure that the wires are connected in their proper location on the Module. No problem with the other end of the Module. I did find a lose wire on the connector to the Fuel Pump Relay, located next to the Wiper Motor on the Firewall. Noticed that one of the 4 wires on the connector to the IAC also had come lose. Repair & Replacing both. Have re-routed other wireing & hoses while checking for any lose or broken wires. This may be my problem and not something more difficult. I will let you know if I have success starting the car when I am all thru triple checking everything. I have posted a few new pictures and will do so again when completed. Thanks.  
Gregorio Lonewolf

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lonewolf11
V-6 Camaros rule!
Posts: 105
Joined: 04/09
Posted: 02/26/12 12:07 PM

Wayne, 1 item that has nearly gone forgotten is the EGR Control Valve Relay Solenoid which possibly could have gone faulty. I found this item ONLY on Amazon.com listed and for $59.00. Worth looking into I bet as it states that if this is working properly it will: Correct Stalling, Rough Idle, Engine Knock, Surging Or Hesitation Caused By An Inoperative Or Incorrectly Functioning Solenoid and/or that/if: The solenoid fails at a much higher rate than the EGR valve and typically causes your C4 Corvette to stall, experience rough idle, engine knock and surging or hesitation during acceleration. Nearly over looked this item in all that I have done so far. Here is where I found it:

http://www.amazon.com/1986-91-Corvette-Control-Valve-Solenoid/dp/B004K5WD8S  
Gregorio Lonewolf

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waynep7122
I have an SS396 tatoo
Posts: 262
Joined: 08/09
Posted: 02/26/12 08:19 PM

see if your local autozone has one of these is stock

Duralast/EGR Vacuum Solenoid
Price: $32.99
Part Number: EVS7




the bracket is different.. the internal workings may be the same...



if any of these devices have less than 20 ohms of resistance...  they will either draw enough current to blow a fuse or damage the ECM again and again.

be sure to check the canister purge solenoid...   those short out also...

the injectors are the ONLY device that may have less than 20 OHMS..  they should be around 16 ohms each INJECTOR..

did you print out the wiring diagram at the front...   do you have any corvette repair manual info???  

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lonewolf11
V-6 Camaros rule!
Posts: 105
Joined: 04/09
Posted: 02/27/12 10:05 AM

Icon Quotewaynep7122:
see if your local autozone has one of these is stock

Duralast/EGR Vacuum Solenoid
Price: $32.99
Part Number: EVS7




the bracket is different.. the internal workings may be the same...



if any of these devices have less than 20 ohms of resistance...  they will either draw enough current to blow a fuse or damage the ECM again and again.

be sure to check the canister purge solenoid...   those short out also...

the injectors are the ONLY device that may have less than 20 OHMS..  they should be around 16 ohms each INJECTOR..

did you print out the wiring diagram at the front...   do you have any corvette repair manual info???


You don't know how much help you have been. This just may work & the cost is reasonable, less than the one on Amazon which is actually a Corvette Central Part being sold on Amazon. I am checking the Cannister Purge Solenoid & the Cannister itself. I do have have a wireing diagram but just in case I may not have the correct one perhaps you can supply? I just have the Chilton's Manual which is somewhat helpful but not always with the details I am looking for. Thought maybe a Hanes would be better, what do you think?  
Gregorio Lonewolf

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waynep7122
I have an SS396 tatoo
Posts: 262
Joined: 08/09
Posted: 02/27/12 12:47 PM

repair info...  for corvettes

autozone     join and log in at the upper right corner...     the coverage is basic..  but its free   you can find it when logged in just above where the you have selected you model..    it covers a lot off years of corvettes.. back to the early 60s as i recall...

the best is a corvette factory service manual in print... there may be more than one section...

sometimes they have been offered on CD/DVD   as a corvette factory service manual..



next...  online subscriptions...   professional shops pay a LOT of money each month for a full subscription to on demand or alldata...

you can take a short or up to a 4 year subscription to  mostly the same info online

i like the info at    eautorepair    dot   net      thats the same as mitchell on demand...

there is also...    alldatadiy  dot com....    

autozone owns alldata..  so you can pick up subscription kits in the AZ stores..


i am not trying to cut anybody out of sales ... i just like dealing in person..  

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waynep7122
I have an SS396 tatoo
Posts: 262
Joined: 08/09
Posted: 02/27/12 01:08 PM

here check this out..

http://www.autozone.com:80/autozone/repairinfo/repairguide/repairGuideContent.jsp?pageId=0900c1528008fc3b

this is the egr page  

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lonewolf11
V-6 Camaros rule!
Posts: 105
Joined: 04/09
Posted: 02/27/12 11:07 PM

Icon Quotewaynep7122:
a few things...   those wire from the pick up coil have under 2 volts AC current.. actually signal AC voltage...

so they can get along without any special insulation..

the order they are installed ON the end of the MODULE is critical...    get it wrong..  the module will fire the coil between the cap terminals not when the rotor is aligned with the cap terminal.. making it really really really hard to get the car started... even though it has spark...




green wire should be closest to the shaft..

green wire on terminal P

white wire on terminal N...


on the 5 pin end.  from the outside in..    B R E N P

B =  bypass input
R =  reference output
E = EST input
N = Input signal Negative
P = input signal Positive..

on the other end...

+ is the battery positive..

C is the wire to the coil negative side...

one of the module hold down screws actually grounds the module..


Wayne, MY BAD!!! I just opened up the distributer to double check everything at 10pm, Matt Kenseth just won the Daytona 500, and found that I somehow had the Green Wire in place of the Yellow Wire. Not next to the shaft as you said it should be. My other wire is Yellow not White. Question, is there any ill effects to having it backwards as I did or any damage that I may have done to anything with the wires reversed as they were? I swear I had the wires in the correct location. Must have been my dirty glasses on & I could not see what the heck I was doing.  
Gregorio Lonewolf

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waynep7122
I have an SS396 tatoo
Posts: 262
Joined: 08/09
Posted: 02/28/12 08:19 AM

ok..   new rules...

No bump drafting the jet drier truck...


it wont hurt anything...

it just caused the ignition to fire the coil with the rotor out of phase with the distributer cap...

when the tips of the reluctor approach the tips of the pick up coil.. it creates a positive voltage..   about half a volt above actual zero volts...   at the moment the tips line up.. the voltage drops to ZERO.. as the tips move apart... the voltage goes negative about half a volt....

this turns the power transistor ON in the module and connects the C terminal to Ground completing the primary winding circuit and creating a magnetic field in the Ignition coil..     as the tips pass each other.. the voltage drops to zero and the power transistor opens and the magnetic field collapses through the secondary windings causing the high voltage spark to be created ...

with the pick up coil hooked up backwards...    this all happens a 1/16 of a turn out of phase...  so the rotor is not lined up with the spark plug wires... but actually between them when the coil discharges..



do you have the distributer OUT of the engine????


with a pair of jumper cables... some kind of metal plate... and an additional wire for the BAT terminal on the HEI...

if you take the jumper cables...   hook both on one end to the negative battery post...   one of the other end to the distributer housing... the other end to the steel plate..   with the rotor, cap and coil installed on the HEI.. and holding it upside down on the steel plate...   if you then hook up the positive terminal to the BAT terminal of the HEI... so its powered up...   you can now safely spin the distributer shaft..  and the HEI will throw sparks to the steel plate ..

this is how i verify the HEI works...     with the additional 4 wire connector on these fuel injected models.. be sure to NOT let that dangle when doing this..    that connected does NOT need to be connected for this out of the engine test...  but make sure you are not dangling it near the exposed cap terminals where HIGH VOLTAGE can fry your module...  

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lonewolf11
V-6 Camaros rule!
Posts: 105
Joined: 04/09
Posted: 02/28/12 09:57 AM

Because of work I missed 98% of the race, got a glimpse of the last 20 Laps.

I do not know your background but if I had your knowledge & tools I bet I would not be having such difficulties. Your explanation of all is quite illuminating, enlightening. I went into the distributer as I am checking, rechecking all of my wires & if I have everything hooked up properly. Perhaps I had missed something thus not starting. Low & behold, a pair of wires connected backwards!

If I had the distributer out I would replace the Pickup Coil & be done with that part of it. What I have been doing is check ALL my wires for connection, bad terminals or connectors, wire brittleness & re-routing of wires, vacuum lines etc. Also wanted to replace the Sensor under the Plenum & it's connector.  
Gregorio Lonewolf

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waynep7122
I have an SS396 tatoo
Posts: 262
Joined: 08/09
Posted: 02/28/12 02:19 PM

you would not believe how many tools i have...    and i still drool when i pick up a tool catalog...  only problem.. when i page through it..  i don't see many items.. that i don't already have.. at least one of already..  or its something that i would never use in a million years..

i just wish i could find somebody who needs my talents..  


if you ever decide to replace the pick up coil... please pick up some carb spray or brake cleaner..

when you knock the roll pin from the gear..  then the gear and the thrust plate comes off the bottom of the shaft.. then use something like a diamond file to remove the burr from the roll pin hole in the shaft..

turn the housing bottom up... fill the housing with spray cleaner...    rotate and pull then push it back in...    rotate while pulling then push it back in...   never let it get stuck part way out..    this sometimes takes 3 or 4 fills of the housing to get the varnish off the shaft to let it slide through the upper bushing without tearing it up...  that is also the reason to knock the burr off the hole for the roll pin...

this gives you an easy access to the pick up coil and the TINY thin snap ring around the top of the bushing that holds the pick up coil down..

i am also taking that you know to use Dielectric grease UNDER the MODULE .. its a thermal grease.... allows the massive amount of heat built up by the switching of the current to the coil negative to transfer heat to the aluminum housing.. where the air flow will transfer the heat out of it..



lDO NOT USE Dieectric grease for a lube for the shaft.. DO NOT USE IT AS A LUBE .. it has dissolved sand in it..

use white lithium grease.. or moly graphite assembly lube for the shaft bushings..  

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lonewolf11
V-6 Camaros rule!
Posts: 105
Joined: 04/09
Posted: 02/29/12 11:03 AM

Icon Quotewaynep7122:
you would not believe how many tools i have...    and i still drool when i pick up a tool catalog...  only problem.. when i page through it..  i don't see many items.. that i don't already have.. at least one of already..  or its something that i would never use in a million years..

i just wish i could find somebody who needs my talents..  


if you ever decide to replace the pick up coil... please pick up some carb spray or brake cleaner..

when you knock the roll pin from the gear..  then the gear and the thrust plate comes off the bottom of the shaft.. then use something like a diamond file to remove the burr from the roll pin hole in the shaft..

turn the housing bottom up... fill the housing with spray cleaner...    rotate and pull then push it back in...    rotate while pulling then push it back in...   never let it get stuck part way out..    this sometimes takes 3 or 4 fills of the housing to get the varnish off the shaft to let it slide through the upper bushing without tearing it up...  that is also the reason to knock the burr off the hole for the roll pin...

this gives you an easy access to the pick up coil and the TINY thin snap ring around the top of the bushing that holds the pick up coil down..

i am also taking that you know to use Dielectric grease UNDER the MODULE .. its a thermal grease.... allows the massive amount of heat built up by the switching of the current to the coil negative to transfer heat to the aluminum housing.. where the air flow will transfer the heat out of it..



lDO NOT USE Dieectric grease for a lube for the shaft.. DO NOT USE IT AS A LUBE .. it has dissolved sand in it..

use white lithium grease.. or moly graphite assembly lube for the shaft bushings..


Thanks Wayne, I had seen this procedure & still you give better advise than what I have seen to date. And yes, I do plan on replacing the Pickup Coil if it is needed. As to the Thermal Grease, I am aware of this but I was NOT on the White Lithium Grease you mentioned as no one else had done so before you.  
Gregorio Lonewolf

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waynep7122
I have an SS396 tatoo
Posts: 262
Joined: 08/09
Posted: 02/29/12 12:03 PM

white lithium grease...

moly graphite assembly lube are both products that are available at OSH stores from stay lube..

i prefer moly graphite assembly lube for rotating parts..

some parts stores have them..

i do things slightly differently.. that other mechanics sometimes..  most of the time because i know.. that if it breaks .. i will be the one who has to fix it.. and i don't like having to fix the same problem twice..   so i take a LITTLE more care doing it the first time..

you should see the other mechanics faces when i smear Hylomar all over brand new head gaskets.  funny..  i have not had to redo a head gasket since i started doing that in 1992..   a friend who showed me that product worked at an engine rebuilder who rebuilt lexus engines for lexus..

now that you have returned the pickup coil wiring to the proper location on the module..   does the engine start????

i have a test if you have the cap and rotor off.. if you have a digital volt meter..????

i usually do this test with the distributer removed from the engine...

set the digital volt meter to the 2K ohm scale..   hook up to the pick up coil...    you should get around 980 Ohms..  but anywhere from 500 to 1500 ohms is expected....

before disconnecting..   flip the digital volt meter to the 2 volts AC or 20 volt AC scale...  and spin the shaft..   or crank the engine is you can make sure that you don't rip the wires out with the spinning shaft.....   you should get close to 1.0 volt AC...   this second test is actually to test the output signal voltage.. and the reluctor ..  

on fords and mopars.. the reluctors can fail..  what . a solid object can fail.. yep..   it can fail to hold a small magnetic field as the shaft spins...    the magnetic field pattern as the reluctor turns causes the AC output.  when the reluctor gets sand blasted at rebuilders.. soaked in chemicals..  rusts ... it changes the magnetic field retaining abilities.. this reduces the size of the field.. this reduces the AC output voltage from the pickup coil..  if the pick up coil does NOT generate close to if not over 1.0 volts.. it will NOT turn on the power transistor to complete the circuit to saturate the primary windings in the coil .. no magnetic field..  it cannot collapse when the module calls to open the circuit and no spark will be created..

what's amazing.. is that the cars start when you turn the key..  all the different things that have to work..    have you tried to start up that antique 386 computer lately??? your 87 is about the same age... as the last of the 386 and the early 486 computers..   those processors are also still in use.. as the 386DX and the 486DX are SPACE rated...  but thats way off thread... in fact thats out in orbit..  

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