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Getting close...finally!

 
55Guy
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Posted: 04/03/08 10:49 AM

Well, the motor for Purple Haze should be all finished up by next week, so all we'll have to do is baseline the car on the dyno with its 305, then swap in the 350 and re-dyno the car.

This has obviously taken longer than I expected, but working on this by myself has presented a few challenges. As with any car project though, a fair amount of patience is necessary!

Just wanted to give everyone an update, and will let you know what the numbers are after we baseline the car. My guess is, it'll make about 125 HP at the rear wheels. That's figuring the motor made 170 HP new, it's got almost 210k miles on it, and the usual amount of driveline parasitic loss.  

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leviakashock
V-6 Camaros rule!
Posts: 64
Joined: 04/08
Posted: 04/09/08 05:53 PM

hey there,

I just wanted to say that i was all about this project when i read the title and the first page and looked at the pics and then i get to the second page and before you have even started working on the car you are already talking about the 350 crate motor you ordered.  I think you guys are so out of touch with people who actually have to spend their hard earned money to get this stuff done that you don't even actually remember what "budget build" means.  Why not build the 305?  Stroke it out put some aluminum fast burn heads on it.  I mean in the May 2007 issue of "camaro performers"  they spent $1500.00 on a 305 with only bolt ons and a dyno tunning and brought the 305 up to 375 hp.  

You totally disappointed me with the whole "350 crate motor" thing.  You guys should put that on the shelf for a different project and show us all what your really capable of doing with the 305.

I have a 1991 rs coupe with the same package as what yours has.  I have spent a little money on it $2500.00 to be exact not all on the motor. probably like $1500.00 on the motor.  Just with a mild cam roller rockers you know yada yada.  and i am turning 320 hp. with the stock heads.  when i buy my aluminum fast burn heads later this year i am expecting to be very, very close to 400 hp.  and that will be about $2500.00 into the 305 then i plan to stroke it with an all forged rotating assembly and add turbos and nos.

when i read the intro to this article i really thought you guys were going to do something different but all you are doing is the same old thing.  Building a 350.  by the way how much would that crate motor cost the average Joe who actually has to pay out of pocket?  I would guess that right now i have spent less and have more hp.  i am only guessing but i have seen the 290 hp crate motors and they are all over 2 grand so...  


wow when i typed this i did not realize that i was responding to a year old thread.  So anyway what happened to the price break down and all that stuff you wwere talking about in the original article?  

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55Guy
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Posts: 1153
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Posted: 04/10/08 11:13 AM

It's coming. As a one-man band, I have other task and duties that take me away from the car. I run five other websites here, plus write for the magazines and serve as the staff photog for our office.

That being said, I thought about doing a 305 build, but was offered the 350 stuff from the folks at GMPP, and honsstly couldn't turn it down. And it approaches the angle of a lot of Camaro owners who don't necessarily want to massage their current engine but just drop in a new bullet and go have fun. And if you're gonna install a new motor, why not step up to the increased power, potential, and versatility of the 350?

Besides, the 305 in my car has almost 210k miles on it, there'd be no massaging power out of it without a full rebuild.

The problem with a 305 stroker (331-ish) is the way out of whack rod-to-stroke ratio, which contributes to excessive side loading on the cylinder walls, not to mention increased friction.

What you've done with your car is great, honestly. I've been a defender of the 305 for a long time. Guys want to knock it, but the motor does what it was designed for very well, make a lot of bottom end torque to move big, heavy cars.

You're right, the 290HP GMPP motor goes for about $2000. You've got almost $2500 in your 305? You'll end up spending about $700-$1000 when all's said and done with the stroker kit. You get to a point where the money spent isn't giving you an acceptable ratio of horsepower return.

Take the GMPP 290 HP 350, put $1000 into it, and you'll have more power than the 305 stroker, and have spent less.  

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leviakashock
V-6 Camaros rule!
Posts: 64
Joined: 04/08
Posted: 04/10/08 08:21 PM

wow! i didn't realize that you had so much responsibility, or that you were doing this project on your own.  Why aren't you getting any help?  not a lot of support from the editor or what?

i definitely can understand you not turning down a free 350.  that is why i have the camaro, it was given to me for free by a guy that i didn't even know.  it had a hole in each side of the block big enough to put your fist in and he just wanted it out of his yard.  you can check out the pics of my free 1991 rs camaro on my myspace page:

http://www.myspace.com/leviakashock  

i don't know how to post pics on here.

yeah i guess you might be right about:

"The problem with a 305 stroker (331-ish) is the way out of whack rod-to-stroke ratio, which contributes to excessive side loading on the cylinder walls, not to mention increased friction"

it's supposed to be 335ci from the kits I've been looking at with 3.775 stroke and 5.7 inch rods.

but i don't have any idea whatsoever of what you are talking about. lol  you could elaborate if you want to.

also i don't think i agree about you saying that if you put another $1000.00 into your motor and i put another $1000.00 into mine you will have more power.  i think if i buy the Chevy high performance fast burn heads and put them on my motor right now of course i would have to buy new springs and they don't come with valves so i would have to buy those too.  but i have roller rockers and everything else right now.  so if i spend the $1200.00 to buy the heads and the $125.00 for the springs and the $100.00 for the valves i will have 400hp.  could you get 400 hp out of that motor with $1400.00?  

I'm serious i don't know i am innocently asking because i don't think you can but i have only been into high performance for about 2 years now.so i say if i stroke it then i will be making like 450-500hp.  do you agree or disagree?  

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leviakashock
V-6 Camaros rule!
Posts: 64
Joined: 04/08
Posted: 04/10/08 08:29 PM

okay i just read you previous post again.

i misunderstood, you were already figuring the fast burn heads into my build so you are saying that if you take you 2500 dollar motor and my 2500 dollar motor with the heads on it and then we both through  in another $1000 you will have more power.  i still disagree but i did misunderstand you at first.  i think in that scenario i would definitely be making 450 -500 hp.  i don't think you would be but i can definitely be wrong.  i am sure you have much more experience then me so..  

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55Guy
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Posted: 04/11/08 12:03 PM

I work in our Tampa office, the rest of the guys are either in the Jersey office or L.A., so I'm flying solo somewhat, nothing to do with no help from the rest of the staff. I'm sure if they were in the same office they'd be more than willing to lend a hand.

On the 305, several other guys have talked about doing decent 305 builds since this debate seems to never end. If no one else does, what I'll probably do is take the 305 out of the car and do a build on it to answer the question, go from the angle of money spent vs. horsepower gained. SC did that 307 build last year, but the 307 is far different from the 305 in the bore and stroke department.

You will be happy to know I'm sticking with my TBI system to see just how much I can get out of it.

On rod to stroke ratio, here's a good link explaining it:

http://www.strokerengine.com/RodStroke.html  

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leviakashock
V-6 Camaros rule!
Posts: 64
Joined: 04/08
Posted: 04/11/08 03:14 PM

i am ecstatic to hear that actually, and i can give you a link that may interest you too.  they offer several different modified tbi, some flowing as much as 850cfm.  here is the link:

http://stores.ebay.com/Xtremefi

type tbi into the search and see what you like.  this is where i will be buying mine when i upgrade.

i can't wait to see the results of your build.  Is it going to be published or just an Internet thing? I can't wait to see what kind of interior and body work you do to it.  what kind of ideas do you have in that department?  

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leviakashock
V-6 Camaros rule!
Posts: 64
Joined: 04/08
Posted: 04/12/08 12:01 PM

I thought that you might be interested to know this bit of info.  while i was reading the june 20008 issue of chevy high performance oof which i have a subscription to along with gm high tech performance adn camaro performers (they now offer a subscription) I came acroos an add for gm performance parts and in leiu of our recent discussion on here i spent a little time looking over the add and it seems that the 290 hp crate 350 in question that you and i were discussing is more like $3500.00 not the $2000.00 that we thought.  it is $3489.95 to be exact that is a gmpp base 350 with 290 hp @ 5100 rpm and 326 .lb -ft. of torque @ 3750 rpm.  that really changes our discussion now because i am way out ahead of you/them on performance per dollar.  I had no idea that it was that expensive.  and i defiinitely don't consider that to be "budget"  and i'm pretty sure that i am not the only one.  if you want to verify my findings check out the page that is i n between the table of contents in this months gmhp.

thought id let you know.  get back to me about my last post.

late  

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55Guy
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Posted: 04/14/08 11:58 AM

That's the list price on that motor, but if you hunt around there are more than a few warehouses and dealers that sell them for about $2,000. And while the motor is rated form GMPP at 290, I've talked to peope who've ran them and they usualyl put out more like 320-ish.

There's a place in California called Turbo City that has a lot of products for GM TBI systems, you should check them out, from rebuild parts, bigger injectors, adjustable fuel pressure regulators, and whole TBI assemblies. Their site is www.turbocity.com

I like the TBI for it's simplicity and ease to maintain. If I ever swap it out, I'll go for the Edelbrock multi-port conversion kit specifically for GM TBI systems, it's much cleaner and easier than going to a tuned port system.  

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55Guy
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Posted: 04/14/08 12:00 PM

On the interior side, before I do any improvements, my first order of business is to get the windows working again. The interior's not in bad shape, the worst thing besides the dash being all cracked up is the windows not working, and there's a bit of a wiring mess form where someone installed an aftermarket alarm system.

The windows are hte only priority though, once they're working it's back to concentrating on the drivetrain, upgrading the rear end and transmission, along with suspension upgrades to handle the 350. A set of BMR subframe connectors are defintiely in the near future before I start putting my foot in the new motor.  

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leviakashock
V-6 Camaros rule!
Posts: 64
Joined: 04/08
Posted: 04/14/08 02:11 PM

cool that you mention the multi-port my next camaro is going to be a 1993 z28 because that was the last camaro with the multi-port.  yeah, thanks for that other sight with the tbi's I'll check that out.  

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leviakashock
V-6 Camaros rule!
Posts: 64
Joined: 04/08
Posted: 04/14/08 02:18 PM

nice.  my interior is definitely not in the same shape as yours. i haven't even had the car running yet so i don't know if the power switches work or not.  i should have it running in a week or two.  my interior (other then the infamous dash) need new seats and new carpet. i probably could clean them up but i would rather just upgrade.  i have the all red interior leather.  but the front seats are old and worn looking. i don't know anyway to fix that (you could inform me if you do)  so i will probably juts by some kind of light weight reclining racing seats.   not real racing seats but you know. and the carpet is very dirty so i figure i will just replace that.

what do you plan to do to the tranny and the rear end.  i rebuild the 700r4 with a b&m rebuild kit and shift kit and i left the 10 bolt 7.625 rear end in it but i upgraded to a motive gear 4.10:1 differential.  hopefully i will be able to plant the tires because of the posi.  i plan to get some wider tires as wide as i can fit without tubbing the car. it is a street/strip project.  i don't plan to get rid of any of the luxury things like a/c,power everything so i definitely will not be tubbing it.  

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