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Push buttons, starters, and a frustrated owner!

 
Devildog91
I love my Chevy Chevette!
Posts: 7
Joined: 09/11
Posted: 09/07/11 06:31 PM

Hey everyone, here's a little problem I have that I know when someone explains to me why I am so dimwitted, I will slap myself in the face.

I have a SB 307 from a 70 chevelle and I'm having some trouble with the starter. The motor is currently sitting in my '84 S10, everything is ready to go, and I have fired the motor up shortly last night, but only did one or two starts as it turns out I had put the 153 tooth starter on the 168 tooth fly. (Grind grind grind.) Installing the correct starter *should* be all I needed to do, correct? Incorrect. For some reason, I have power to the cab: radio, fans, lights, etc.. I do NOT have ignition. I can not get either starter to turn now, not just turn, but do anything. My wiring looks as such. 12V to solenoid +, 12V (hot)  AND push button to cab, push button return and cab return to the small prong on the starter solenoid. What puzzles me is I had JUST cranked earlier with what I believe is the same wiring configuration, and I have cab power. The starter was tested only minutes before, and the battery was fully charged a day or so ago. So what is it boys and girls? What is the key? I can be more descriptive of the wiring, including pictures and such if needed.

Really appreciate it everyone!


REVISED: Here is a more descriptive picture of what I actually did.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=276458155699759&set=a.180595865285989.45753.100000067314859&type=1&theater  

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waynep7122
I mow my lawn and find Chevys
Posts: 1130
Joined: 08/09
Posted: 09/07/11 07:21 PM

there is a problem...

most chevy motors up to 1982 had 3/8-16 starter bolts..   chevy motors starting in 1982 had 10MM x 1.5 thread starter bolts..   the metric versions are 0.020" thicker than the earlier bolts..   this allows the starters to shift around no matter how tight they are....    if you put metric bolts into the early block.. you will usually either break the bolt off.. or break the corner off the block....


i will have to carefully re read your post..  see if i can figure out what you have done...

normally ON s10 pickups... there is a terminal block behind the right hand cylinder head on the firewall .. it has 2 studs.. a big and a small one..   the power to the car comes from the top post on the starter up to that ...  

do you have a wiring diagram for the 84 S10????


perhaps this will help

0900C1528003db68  

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redneckjoe69
I mow my lawn and find Chevys
Posts: 2337
Joined: 03/10
Posted: 09/08/11 06:01 AM

first, id charge the battery.   the wire from your push button should go to the S post on the solenoid.   you can do a quick bench test of your starter with jumper cables.  ground to the starter body, positive to the main hot lug.  use a screwdriver to jump the hot & start connections.  this is not a load test though.   if your motor started last night, i doubt you have the wrong starter.  sounds like you need some shimming.      you could put a toggle switch in there for the ignition as a last resort.  

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Devildog91
I love my Chevy Chevette!
Posts: 7
Joined: 09/11
Posted: 09/08/11 07:58 AM

Thanks for the help everyone. So far, it sounds like I haven't done anything wrong just yet. I will try to jump the starter when I get home tonight and post the results. I know the starter is good because of the testing, but I'll just start eliminating things one step at a time. And yeah, funny thing is that's exactly how I had it wired from the beginning! Maybe I just popped a wire loose somewhere. Keep you posted.  

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Devildog91
I love my Chevy Chevette!
Posts: 7
Joined: 09/11
Posted: 09/08/11 02:54 PM

Well, as it stands, the starter and battery are both operational. I tested with the cables and screwdriver, and it spun and came out just like it should. I was told that I may have the ignition and run wires swapped, but I don't believe that would be the case. I have a push button instead of a starter switch, so it should turn regardless? Going to start getting creative here soon... Creative + desperate = MacGyver. I don't want it to look like the *People you follow home from Wal-Mart* pictures.  

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Devildog91
I love my Chevy Chevette!
Posts: 7
Joined: 09/11
Posted: 09/08/11 03:11 PM

Aha! I honestly can't believe this, but it WAS something very simple that I have never actually seen before. A quote from my Grandfather which is simple: "A ground can put a hurting on you." Thanks, Grampi, I decided to test the starter with the wiring configuration as it was AND add the jump cables as a ground to the motor mount, just in case. It worked via cable ground, and not without. That does not make any sense to me, as it should be grounded on the motor when attached, but hey, I won't argue with the logistics of finding a fix for it. Any ideas on wiring am easy ground? I have thought about starter bolt (from the bolt head as to not displace the starter) to... Ideas? Thanks.  

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redneckjoe69
I mow my lawn and find Chevys
Posts: 2337
Joined: 03/10
Posted: 09/08/11 03:37 PM

do you have a ground going from the battery to the block?    glad to hear you just about got it figured out.  

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skyeking
I mow my lawn and find Chevys
Posts: 2738
Joined: 08/09
Posted: 09/08/11 03:52 PM

Hi there,
 Sorry to but in but fact is stanger than fiction.
 You guys don't have all the fun.
 Earth problems are a curse

when putting a Chevy motor into a Jaguar. Try this..
When using the right hand blinker the car arial was
working with each blink as well as the brake lights.
 I gave that" SPARKS" a quick redundance cheque.  
skyeking

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Devildog91
I love my Chevy Chevette!
Posts: 7
Joined: 09/11
Posted: 09/10/11 08:13 AM

Well guys, I'm just about there. The starter works great with a few shims, and the motor runs perfect. Here's what's up. Be careful grounding onto chrome. Not sure why, but the alternator bolt would not carry conduction. Fuel pump bolt was great though. NOW, here's the problem. I hooked the wires up to the solenoid and the key does not start the motor. We were testing the starter for contact just bumping it over with the push button. The key was out, and one turn sent the motor over and it caught and started right up... With no key... Lol, help? Had to d/c the battery to shut it down. Suggestions?  

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waynep7122
I mow my lawn and find Chevys
Posts: 1130
Joined: 08/09
Posted: 09/10/11 10:40 AM

i normally post some tests to check for grounds...

grandpa test worked....     you should take 3 minutes and try this test on several cars that are actually working..

this is what i normally post... if you can get the engine running..  turn the headlights on...

set your digital volt meter to 20 volts scale.

1. test between the positive battery post and the negative battery post...    14.1 to 14.7

2. test between the negative battery post and the engine block......   0.04 volts  is expected..

3. test between the negative battery post and the body/firewall..    0.02 volts is expected..

4. test between the engine block and the body...                      0.02 volts is expected...

why am i having you do these tests... if you have a bad ground between the parts ..  there will be higher readings between the parts measured  on test 2, 3, 4..   why....   electrons flow from negative to positive... if you don't have good grounds.. there will be different voltages measured between parts .. but only when the engine is running and the headlights on ...

think of a garden hose....   the faucet is on... but the nozzle is closed...       if you measured the pressure (voltage ) at both ends it would be the same..

now.. open the nozzle...   Oh.. the water barely trickles out...  your car is parked part way on the hose almost pinching it off...   if you looked at the pressure on one end and the pressure on the other..  there will be a LOT of difference.. this is what you are measuring with the digital volt meter..  

if your car was not parked on the hose.. the nozzle would flow at full blast...  if do to internal hose restriction..  there will be less pressure at the nozzle...   this is why you need to use a digital volt meter.. the difference when the system is working properly is TINY..  more than 0.00...  

try it.. .  test a bunch of different cars..  

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waynep7122
I mow my lawn and find Chevys
Posts: 1130
Joined: 08/09
Posted: 09/10/11 10:44 AM

you can also do a similar test with the engine cranking.. or attempting to crank...


WHILE CRANKING or attempting to crank

battery positive to the  alternator output wire on the back if you can reach it...   less than 1.0 volt.

battery negative post to the engine block....  less than 1.0 volt ...

if you get more.. then you have a wiring problem...  

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redneckjoe69
I mow my lawn and find Chevys
Posts: 2337
Joined: 03/10
Posted: 09/10/11 11:42 AM

+1 for grandpa.  Cool  

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Devildog91
I love my Chevy Chevette!
Posts: 7
Joined: 09/11
Posted: 09/10/11 02:07 PM

Oohrah! Thanks all. Appreciate it! Off topic, yes, but I'm ready to take her out for the first test drive. As I am filling TH350 trans with fluid (about 8 qts of the 10 I was putting in), that bubbling *oh-no-your-car-just-pissed-itself-on-the-garage-floor* noise erupted. Yay! I located where it was coming from, the driver-side of the trans towards the front near the top, there is a little hole. Not much room, but it doesn't appear to have any threads on it, but looks almost like a rubber plug is supposed to be there. I'll re-post under Drivetrain, but I thought I might take a stab here. Ya'll know what're you're doing it sounds like, and I'm just a plain Jarhead! Thanks.  

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yourturn2
I love my Chevy Chevette!
Posts: 1
Joined: 09/11
Posted: 09/21/11 10:02 AM

You have to run the power to your push button and distributor through your  ignition switch first so they are only fed power with the key on.
 Joe  

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